Ham Radio Homebrew Informations: March 2012

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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 12:16:39 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr@contesting.com>
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Subject: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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I have an SB-220 that dates at least to 1978. There is no external sign
of any problems, and the amp has been heavily used in contests for at
least 20 years. It still delivers over 1300 watts on 80-20. Is there
going to be any warning of a capacitor failure? Will there likely be
any cascading damage to other components? Is it conventional wisdom that
I should replace them as a precaution?

--
73, Pete N4ZR
The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000

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On 2012-03-28, at 12:16 PM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:

Hi Pete,

When the filter caps in my filter string started to expire, one by one, the fuse in the 2.5 KV power supply would simply blow...

I finally grew tired of replacing them one by one, & simply wholesale replaced all of them. Surprisingly, the caps lasted some 32 years---but electrolytics seem to be like lightbulbs in that they all "age" at surprisingly the same rate. I guess once you lose one, "...it's time"!

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ

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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glen Zook <gzook@yahoo.com>
To: Eddy Swynar <deswynar@xplornet.ca>, Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr@contesting.com>
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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The electrolytic capacitors in my Henry / Tempo 2001 lasted for 38-years an=
d then 3 of them "went" at the same time.
=A0
Glen, K9STH

Website: http://k9sth.com

________________________________
From: Eddy Swynar <deswynar@xplornet.ca>
To: Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr@contesting.com>=20
Cc: Amps@contesting.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
=20

Hi Pete,

When the filter caps in my filter string started to expire, one by one, the=
fuse in the 2.5 KV power supply would simply blow...

I finally grew tired of replacing them one by one, & simply wholesale repla=
ced all of them. Surprisingly, the caps lasted some 32 years---but electrol=
ytics seem to be like lightbulbs in that they all "age" at surprisingly the=
same rate. I guess once you lose one, "...it's time"!
_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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Glen,

Wow, that must have been exciting, no need for any more coffee after that, hihi.

Bob
K6UJ

On Mar 28, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Glen Zook wrote:

> The electrolytic capacitors in my Henry / Tempo 2001 lasted for 38-years and then 3 of them "went" at the same time.
>
> Glen, K9STH
>
>
> Website: http://k9sth.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eddy Swynar <deswynar@xplornet.ca>
> To: Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr@contesting.com>
> Cc: Amps@contesting.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
>
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> When the filter caps in my filter string started to expire, one by one, the fuse in the 2.5 KV power supply would simply blow...
>
> I finally grew tired of replacing them one by one, & simply wholesale replaced all of them. Surprisingly, the caps lasted some 32 years---but electrolytics seem to be like lightbulbs in that they all "age" at surprisingly the same rate. I guess once you lose one, "...it's time"!
> _______________________________________________
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Fortunately, I had replacement capacitors in stock. =A0Got the amplifier ba=
ck on the air in about an hour.

They didn't explode, just let out a LOT of smoke.
=A0
Glen, K9STH

Website: http://k9sth.com

________________________________
From: Bob K6UJ <k6uj@pacbell.net>
To: Glen Zook <gzook@yahoo.com>=20
Cc: Eddy Swynar <deswynar@xplornet.ca>; Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr@contesting.co=
m>; "Amps@contesting.com" <Amps@contesting.com>=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
=20
Glen,

Wow,=A0 that must have been exciting,=A0 no need for any more coffee after =
that, hihi.
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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You know when the lights dim , the transformer goes up in smoke and the
breaker blows....in that order. Collateral damage would likely be the
diodes.

You could replace them with C-D 381LX series 330uF at 450V as the larger
diameter fits right in the old plastic blocks. Replace the resistors with
100K 3W MOX. All at Mouser.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Smith N4ZR" <n4zr@contesting.com>
To: <Amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:16 PM
Subject: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?

>I have an SB-220 that dates at least to 1978. There is no external sign
> of any problems, and the amp has been heavily used in contests for at
> least 20 years. It still delivers over 1300 watts on 80-20. Is there
> going to be any warning of a capacitor failure? Will there likely be
> any cascading damage to other components? Is it conventional wisdom that
> I should replace them as a precaution?
>
> --
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at
> www.conteststations.com
> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
> reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
> arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
> -----
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_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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Pete,

My understanding from input received on this reflector is that the electrolytic filter caps have reached the end of their lifespan and
are prone to go out after about 15 years. This varies of course but it is good idea to change them out if they are as old as yours.
The problem with these guys is that when they go you don't normally have any pre indication and they usually go kaboom and take out
other stuff along with it. Cheap insurance to replace them.

Bob
K6UJ

On Mar 28, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:

> I have an SB-220 that dates at least to 1978. There is no external sign
> of any problems, and the amp has been heavily used in contests for at
> least 20 years. It still delivers over 1300 watts on 80-20. Is there
> going to be any warning of a capacitor failure? Will there likely be
> any cascading damage to other components? Is it conventional wisdom that
> I should replace them as a precaution?
>
> --
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
> arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

_______________________________________________
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From: "Paul Christensen" <w9ac@arrl.net>
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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Temperature and working voltage are the major drivers affecting life span.
Roughly, for every 10-degree C reduction in rated working temperature near
the maximum working operating voltage, life doubles.

I've been changing electrolytics when they've been in service for about 20
years -- sooner under high operating temperatures. I recently re-capped an
Alpha 86 and due to the high cost of computer-grade electrolytics, the
project cost about $175 for seven OEM caps. Still, life of an electrolytic
cap seems to vary wildly. For example, filtering and regulation in several
of my ca. 1930s National power supplies remain excellent and the caps are
now 75 years old. Back then, any electrolytic cap greater than about 10 uF
(at 350V +) was a rarity and it wasn't until after WWII that manufacturing
processes became better, allowing for greater cap density. With older
electrolytics, I don't go through a ramping up routine with a Variac device
either. If it works, great. If it fails on power-up then it was on the
ragged-edge of reliability anyway and in need of replacement.

Oil-filled HV caps seem to rarely fail. No doubt it happens, but overall
they appear to have long life spans.

Paul, W9AC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob K6UJ" <k6uj@pacbell.net>
To: "amps@contesting.com" <Amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?

> Pete,
>
> My understanding from input received on this reflector is that the
> electrolytic filter caps have reached the end of their lifespan and
> are prone to go out after about 15 years. This varies of course but it is
> good idea to change them out if they are as old as yours.
> The problem with these guys is that when they go you don't normally have
> any pre indication and they usually go kaboom and take out
> other stuff along with it. Cheap insurance to replace them.
>
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
>
>> I have an SB-220 that dates at least to 1978. There is no external sign
>> of any problems, and the amp has been heavily used in contests for at
>> least 20 years. It still delivers over 1300 watts on 80-20. Is there
>> going to be any warning of a capacitor failure? Will there likely be
>> any cascading damage to other components? Is it conventional wisdom that
>> I should replace them as a precaution?
>>
>> --
>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at
>> www.conteststations.com
>> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
>> reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
>> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
>> arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amps mailing list
>> Amps@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
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It really depends on how much the equipment is used as to how long the elec=
trolytic capacitors last. =A0The more that the equipment is used the capaci=
tors last longer. =A0Sitting in an unused state for long lengths of time re=
sults in premature electrolytic capacitor death.
=A0
Glen, K9STH

Website: http://k9sth.com

________________________________
From: Bob K6UJ <k6uj@pacbell.net>
To: "amps@contesting.com" <Amps@contesting.com>=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
=20
Pete,

My understanding from input received on this reflector is that the electrol=
ytic filter caps have reached the end of their lifespan and
are prone to go out after about 15 years.=A0 This varies of course but it i=
s good idea to change them out if they are as old as yours.
The problem with these guys is that when they go you don't normally have an=
y pre indication and they usually go kaboom and take out
other stuff along with it.=A0 Cheap insurance to replace them.
_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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A lot depends upon the quality of the cap to start with, its enviroment
which also includes RF since electrolytics react poorly to it as seen in
Dentron amps with only 500pf plate choke bypasses that are run hard on
160/80M.

Many of the amps I get in for service have 80's date codes on the caps and
those I always strongly recommend get changed. Subsequent testing confirms
leakage is already in the twilight zone but not yet dangerous.....on most
but there are exceptions.

Since Computer Grade caps arent that expensive its good insurance. I buy all
mine, no matter the amp, from Ameritron at $13.50 each for 270uF or $108 for
8 of them. These fit the Alphas, Amp Supply, Ameritron and a few others.

Other amps such as Heath, Command, QRO, etc get the CDE 381LX series 330uF
450V 105*C caps from Mouser at $14.75 a pop but I buy the 25 qty at $9.95
since I use so many. They are also retrofitted into amps using the twist
lock cans and the 30mm dia 220uf fits the NCL-2000 clips perfectly.

Since the tolerance is far better than originals I cut down on extra heat
and current by replacing 30-50K equalizers with 100K 3W MOX.

Carl
KM1H

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From: Rob Atkinson <ranchorobbo@gmail.com>
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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I guess switching over to a few oil caps with appropriate bleeders
standing by externally isn't a bad idea after all.
Now I know why Henry used them.

Rob
K5UJ
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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Why? They arent much more reliable.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Atkinson" <ranchorobbo@gmail.com>
To: <amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?

>I guess switching over to a few oil caps with appropriate bleeders
> standing by externally isn't a bad idea after all.
> Now I know why Henry used them.
>
>
> 73
>
> Rob
> K5UJ
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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Carl KM1H wrote:

> Why? They aren't much more reliable.

>> I guess switching over to a few oil caps with appropriate bleeders
>> standing by externally isn't a bad idea after all.
>> Now I know why Henry used them.

Electrolytic capacitors and light bulbs are the only items in a HAM amplifier (or almost anything
else) that have a pre-determined life expectancy.
It doesn't mater if 99% of ham amplifiers use brute force filtering it is a bad idea on many
levels, just the stored energy discharged during "an event" makes it the poorest of engineering
practices. It is so poor I discourage it whenever I can. Like now.

After working on hundreds of power supplies of all Voltages over almost 50 years, almost 100%
using Pi network (low pass) filters with oil filled capacitors, a very few had any problem other
than springing an oil leak, most frequently at a bushing.
--
73 Ron KA4INM - All E-mail sent to this address shall linger in the Google cloud forever!
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
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I had one blow years ago, It blew the white debri all over the inside of the amp and
scared the &*%$#%$ out of me. I was lucky and only the cap went. My wife
came running in and wondered what the hell happened, she was not impressed :-)
I decided to change all of them with new ones, hihi.

Anyone else have them blow and can share with us ?

Bob
K6UJ

On Mar 28, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Carl wrote:

> A lot depends upon the quality of the cap to start with, its enviroment which also includes RF since electrolytics react poorly to it as seen in Dentron amps with only 500pf plate choke bypasses that are run hard on 160/80M.
>
> Many of the amps I get in for service have 80's date codes on the caps and those I always strongly recommend get changed. Subsequent testing confirms leakage is already in the twilight zone but not yet dangerous.....on most but there are exceptions.
>
> Since Computer Grade caps arent that expensive its good insurance. I buy all mine, no matter the amp, from Ameritron at $13.50 each for 270uF or $108 for 8 of them. These fit the Alphas, Amp Supply, Ameritron and a few others.
>
> Other amps such as Heath, Command, QRO, etc get the CDE 381LX series 330uF 450V 105*C caps from Mouser at $14.75 a pop but I buy the 25 qty at $9.95 since I use so many. They are also retrofitted into amps using the twist lock cans and the 30mm dia 220uf fits the NCL-2000 clips perfectly.
>
> Since the tolerance is far better than originals I cut down on extra heat and current by replacing 30-50K equalizers with 100K 3W MOX.
>
> Carl
> KM1H
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob K6UJ" <k6uj@pacbell.net>
> To: "amps@contesting.com" <Amps@contesting.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
>
>
>> Pete,
>>
>> My understanding from input received on this reflector is that the electrolytic filter caps have reached the end of their lifespan and
>> are prone to go out after about 15 years. This varies of course but it is good idea to change them out if they are as old as yours.
>> The problem with these guys is that when they go you don't normally have any pre indication and they usually go kaboom and take out
>> other stuff along with it. Cheap insurance to replace them.
>>
>> Bob
>> K6UJ
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
>>
>>> I have an SB-220 that dates at least to 1978. There is no external sign
>>> of any problems, and the amp has been heavily used in contests for at
>>> least 20 years. It still delivers over 1300 watts on 80-20. Is there
>>> going to be any warning of a capacitor failure? Will there likely be
>>> any cascading damage to other components? Is it conventional wisdom that
>>> I should replace them as a precaution?
>>>
>>> --
>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>>> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
>>> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
>>> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
>>> arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Amps mailing list
>>> Amps@contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>
>>
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On 2012-03-28, at 7:23 PM, Bob K6UJ wrote:

> I had one blow years ago, It blew the white debri all over the inside of the amp and
> scared the &*%$#%$ out of me. I was lucky and only the cap went. My wife
> came running in and wondered what the hell happened, she was not impressed :-)
> I decided to change all of them with new ones, hihi.
>
> Anyone else have them blow and can share with us ?
>

Hi Bob,

Back in about 1977 when I built my first linear amplifier & associated 1.5 KV power supply, I employed a collection of similar-looking (and very cheap!) surplus electrolytic capacitors that I bought from a mail order surplus outfit...

In those simpler days I had no idea of the necessity of "healing", or re-forming electrolytic capacitors gradually BEFORE use, & so simply applied full voltage to the string of them right out of the box, & basically "...let 'er go".

Each cap was an aluminum can type, with a wax plug at the bottom---the caps were mounted on a drilled piece of breadboard, with the wax caps (i.e. the bottoms of the cans) pointed upward...and for the initial testing purpose I had the top cover of the power supply off.

Well, within a second, or two, of applying B+ to the filter, I heard what can only be described as a shriek from a roman candle---and it grew in intensity. Suddenly a heard a spraying sound, whereupon I immediately killed the power...

Sure enough, the wax cap from one of the electrolytics had "popped", & electrolyte had spewed upward like lava from an erupting volcano, and actually stuck to the ceiling of my shack!

After that experience I brushed-up on the "...care & feeding of electrolytics", & to this day NEVER install ANY h.v. electrolytic cap without first going through the re-forming process with it...

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ

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As a Novice I built a HB 6AG7/6L6 rig with surplus parts from Radio Row in
NYC including the 400-0-400V 250ma transformer, choke and a plug in dual 8uF
450V filter cap. I didnt own a meter.

About 5 minutes after turning it on for the first time I heard a hiss that
kept getting louder and the 5Z3 was flashing real bad so I made a beeline
across the basement as a tremendous bang let loose and I was peppered with
debris. Now, Im 15 at the time but I KNEW something bad was about to happen
and knew enough to get my young a** away FAST!

There was nothing but debris scattered everywhere and the cap had actually
blown out of the socket and pieces of black gooey stuff plus aluminum
shrapnel on the ceiling rafters, work bench, radio, 2 walls, floor and some
on me. Mom came running all alarmed until she saw I wasnt hurt and
eventually went back upstairs. Dad was at work still.

I bought an old 2nd hand Simpson and found the transformer was
mislabled....it was 800V either side! Off to NYC the following Saturday for
more parts. The rig worked, got me 2 FCC citations for 3rd harmonics before
I found out I was tripling. by mistuning the pi network.

That big transformer wound up a few years later powering a 4x modified 1625
GG amp just fine with some oil filled 2000V caps. That transformer may just
still be around as I found the choke a year or so ago along with the loose
1625's....56 years later.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob K6UJ" <k6uj@pacbell.net>
To: <Amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?

>I had one blow years ago, It blew the white debri all over the inside of
>the amp and
> scared the &*%$#%$ out of me. I was lucky and only the cap went. My
> wife
> came running in and wondered what the hell happened, she was not impressed
> :-)
> I decided to change all of them with new ones, hihi.
>
> Anyone else have them blow and can share with us ?
>
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Carl wrote:
>
>> A lot depends upon the quality of the cap to start with, its enviroment
>> which also includes RF since electrolytics react poorly to it as seen in
>> Dentron amps with only 500pf plate choke bypasses that are run hard on
>> 160/80M.
>>
>> Many of the amps I get in for service have 80's date codes on the caps
>> and those I always strongly recommend get changed. Subsequent testing
>> confirms leakage is already in the twilight zone but not yet
>> dangerous.....on most but there are exceptions.
>>
>> Since Computer Grade caps arent that expensive its good insurance. I buy
>> all mine, no matter the amp, from Ameritron at $13.50 each for 270uF or
>> $108 for 8 of them. These fit the Alphas, Amp Supply, Ameritron and a few
>> others.
>>
>> Other amps such as Heath, Command, QRO, etc get the CDE 381LX series
>> 330uF 450V 105*C caps from Mouser at $14.75 a pop but I buy the 25 qty at
>> $9.95 since I use so many. They are also retrofitted into amps using the
>> twist lock cans and the 30mm dia 220uf fits the NCL-2000 clips perfectly.
>>
>> Since the tolerance is far better than originals I cut down on extra heat
>> and current by replacing 30-50K equalizers with 100K 3W MOX.
>>
>> Carl
>> KM1H
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob K6UJ" <k6uj@pacbell.net>
>> To: "amps@contesting.com" <Amps@contesting.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] How Do You Know When Filter Caps Begin to Fail?
>>
>>
>>> Pete,
>>>
>>> My understanding from input received on this reflector is that the
>>> electrolytic filter caps have reached the end of their lifespan and
>>> are prone to go out after about 15 years. This varies of course but it
>>> is good idea to change them out if they are as old as yours.
>>> The problem with these guys is that when they go you don't normally have
>>> any pre indication and they usually go kaboom and take out
>>> other stuff along with it. Cheap insurance to replace them.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> K6UJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 28, 2012, at 9:16 AM, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have an SB-220 that dates at least to 1978. There is no external
>>>> sign
>>>> of any problems, and the amp has been heavily used in contests for at
>>>> least 20 years. It still delivers over 1300 watts on 80-20. Is there
>>>> going to be any warning of a capacitor failure? Will there likely be
>>>> any cascading damage to other components? Is it conventional wisdom
>>>> that
>>>> I should replace them as a precaution?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>>>> The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at
>>>> www.conteststations.com
>>>> The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
>>>> reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
>>>> spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
>>>> arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Amps mailing list
>>>> Amps@contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Amps mailing list
>>> Amps@contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>
>>>
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>
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> Anyone else have them blow and can share with us ?

!972. 9th grade, and just finished assembling an HW-101 and HP-23 power
supply. I wired the filter 'lytics in backwards and after about ten
seconds, the caps split, and white borax dust was everywhere. This was
before the use of scored aluminum safety valves as is now common on many
'lytics. Not sure if that would have helped or made the dust situation even
worse.

Paul, W9AC

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1. I, too, have shared Bob K6UJ's experience with an electrolytic cap exploding, and the mess was awful enough to make me conservative about the issue of replacement. The goo between the foil seems to be somewhat corrosive, was slow to clean off, and damaged some of the metal it got on.

2. I'm cheap, and have used many surplus electrolytic caps. Along with Glen K9STH's suggestions, I suggest that anyone also using surplus caps connect them in series and place some DC across for a few hours, then see how much they leak. I toss anything that gives off any more than a few watts -- I've seen leakages of 20 - 30 mA at voltages of around 300V (6 - 9 watts) on surplus caps -- and know others who are even more conservative than I about throwing them out. They can be so much cheaper than new that I think it is cheap insurance being conservative. Along with Glen, I have found that frequent usage tends to make electrolytic caps last longer, not go bad faster.

3. Finally, particularly if you use surplus caps, I suggest that AFTER THE CAPS ARE THOROUGHLY DISCHARGED, every so often it is worthwhile to simply feel them after they have been under power for a few hours, and replace the whole batch if any one of them is particularly warm.

Gene May
WB8WKU

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Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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Many moons ago my boss at the time was probing about in a live chassis
when an aluminum cap blew. His glasses kept the stuff out of his eyes,
but when he lifted his head I saw he had a chunk of the aluminum can
sticking out of his forehead. When I told him, he calmly reached up and
pulled it loose, then put me to work cleaning up all the paper and gunk
that had showered the shop.

Since then, I've been a bit shy about working directly above a string of
electrolytics...

73,
Jim N7CXI

On 3/28/2012 5:19 PM, Gene May wrote:
>
>
> 1. I, too, have shared Bob K6UJ's experience with an electrolytic cap exploding, and the mess was awful enough to make me conservative about the issue of replacement. The goo between the foil seems to be somewhat corrosive, was slow to clean off, and damaged some of the metal it got on.
>
> 2. I'm cheap, and have used many surplus electrolytic caps. Along with Glen K9STH's suggestions, I suggest that anyone also using surplus caps connect them in series and place some DC across for a few hours, then see how much they leak. I toss anything that gives off any more than a few watts -- I've seen leakages of 20 - 30 mA at voltages of around 300V (6 - 9 watts) on surplus caps -- and know others who are even more conservative than I about throwing them out. They can be so much cheaper than new that I think it is cheap insurance being conservative. Along with Glen, I have found that frequent usage tends to make electrolytic caps last longer, not go bad faster.
>
> 3. Finally, particularly if you use surplus caps, I suggest that AFTER THE CAPS ARE THOROUGHLY DISCHARGED, every so often it is worthwhile to simply feel them after they have been under power for a few hours, and replace the whole batch if any one of them is particularly warm.
>
> Gene May
> WB8WKU
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glen Zook <gzook@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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When I was in high school, the physics teacher decided to have a one-semest=
er "electronics" class. =A0There were parts from all sorts of discarded tel=
evision sets around. =A0A couple of the less bright students discovered tha=
t if you plugged the electrolytic capacitors into an AC outlet that in seve=
ral seconds the capacitor would explode. =A0For several days thereafter, on=
e of those students would go into a classroom (when it was empty) or to a s=
ecluded part of the hallway and plug a capacitor into an outlet. =A0The res=
ults were obvious.

After that, the teacher started checking the capacitors "in and out". =A0Th=
e "explosions" stopped.
=A0
Glen, K9STH

Website: http://k9sth.com

________________________________
From: Jim Barber <audioguy@q.com>
To: Gene May <gene-may@hotmail.com>=20
Cc: Amplifier Mailing List <amps@contesting.com>=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
=20

Many moons ago my boss at the time was probing about in a live chassis=20
when an aluminum cap blew. His glasses kept the stuff out of his eyes,=20
but when he lifted his head I saw he had a chunk of the aluminum can=20
sticking out of his forehead. When I told him, he calmly reached up and=20
pulled it loose, then put me to work cleaning up all the paper and gunk=20
that had showered the shop.

Since then, I've been a bit shy about working directly above a string of=20
electrolytics...
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Glen K9STH Zook wrote:

> When I was in high school, the physics teacher decided to have a one-semester "electronics" class. There were parts from all sorts of discarded television sets around. A couple of the less bright students discovered that if you plugged the electrolytic capacitors into an AC outlet that in several seconds the capacitor would explode. For several days thereafter, one of those students would go into a classroom (when it was empty) or to a secluded part of the hallway and plug a capacitor into an outlet. The results were obvious.

> After that, the teacher started checking the capacitors "in and out". The "explosions" stopped.

When I was in school (electronics school) we had a wise guy that tore apart "5 tube all
American's" for the dual 150 Volt electrolytics with three leads molded in, (at home) he would go
into an unused classroom and "wired in" the electrolytics into one of the ceiling lights, somehow.
The next teacher was always the witness to the results if his mischief. I know only because I
caught him a couple of times. (both on "sand box breaks" from different classes)
He also had a way of adding a 10 minute delay to a cherry bomb. (Clever!)
--
73 Ron KA4INM - All E-mail sent to this address shall linger in the Google cloud forever!
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From: Rob Atkinson <ranchorobbo@gmail.com>
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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If I were you all, I'd either pay what it costs for decent
electrolytics or look for used oil caps. This thing with reforming
and having one go kablooey -- not worth it.
Maybe you can find a few other hams nearby to go in for fifty 450 v.
330 uF from Mouser--get Illinois Capacitor or CD and save some money
by getting quantity. Eight of those each for a 3 KV supply.

Rob
K5UJ
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From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
To: "Gene May" <gene-may@hotmail.com>,
"Amplifier Mailing List" <amps@contesting.com>
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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After a short time reforming of modern caps anything over 1ma at 450V I
consider junk.
Ive also rejected new caps that started acting up at around 440V which
caused Ameritron grief when I told them. They found out their supplier was
short changing them on the aluminum and have been testing....and rejecting
since.

I buy large amounts of repair parts from them so they listen when I report a
problem.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene May" <gene-may@hotmail.com>
To: "Amplifier Mailing List" <amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail

>
>
> 1. I, too, have shared Bob K6UJ's experience with an electrolytic cap
> exploding, and the mess was awful enough to make me conservative about the
> issue of replacement. The goo between the foil seems to be somewhat
> corrosive, was slow to clean off, and damaged some of the metal it got
> on.
>
> 2. I'm cheap, and have used many surplus electrolytic caps. Along with
> Glen K9STH's suggestions, I suggest that anyone also using surplus caps
> connect them in series and place some DC across for a few hours, then see
> how much they leak. I toss anything that gives off any more than a few
> watts -- I've seen leakages of 20 - 30 mA at voltages of around 300V (6 -
> 9 watts) on surplus caps -- and know others who are even more conservative
> than I about throwing them out. They can be so much cheaper than new that
> I think it is cheap insurance being conservative. Along with Glen, I have
> found that frequent usage tends to make electrolytic caps last longer, not
> go bad faster.
>
> 3. Finally, particularly if you use surplus caps, I suggest that AFTER
> THE CAPS ARE THOROUGHLY DISCHARGED, every so often it is worthwhile to
> simply feel them after they have been under power for a few hours, and
> replace the whole batch if any one of them is particularly warm.
>
> Gene May
> WB8WKU
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2113/4900 - Release Date: 03/28/12
>

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

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Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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Hi Carl, as you know, there are only eight of those filter C's in the
Ameritron amps. When AC line voltage gets up around 245vac or so, the unloaded
plate voltage gets close to 3600vdc. That leaves very little or no headroom
with a string of 450v caps, let alone ones that top out at 440v.

I learned all about this the hard way when an AL1500 was strapped for
200vac operation in an attempt to get more power output.

Not a pretty sight! Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

73,
Gerald K5GW

In a message dated 3/28/2012 8:12:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
km1h@jeremy.mv.com writes:

I buy large amounts of repair parts from them so they listen when I report
a
problem.

Carl
KM1H

>
>
> 1. I, too, have shared Bob K6UJ's experience with an electrolytic cap
> exploding, and the mess was awful enough to make me conservative about
the
> issue of replacement. The goo between the foil seems to be somewhat
> corrosive, was slow to clean off, and damaged some of the metal it got
> on.
>
> 2. I'm cheap, and have used many surplus electrolytic caps. Along with
> Glen K9STH's suggestions, I suggest that anyone also using surplus caps
> connect them in series and place some DC across for a few hours, then
see
> how much they leak. I toss anything that gives off any more than a few
> watts -- I've seen leakages of 20 - 30 mA at voltages of around 300V (6
-
> 9 watts) on surplus caps -- and know others who are even more
conservative
> than I about throwing them out. They can be so much cheaper than new
that
> I think it is cheap insurance being conservative. Along with Glen, I
have
> found that frequent usage tends to make electrolytic caps last longer,
not
> go bad faster.
>
> 3. Finally, particularly if you use surplus caps, I suggest that AFTER
> THE CAPS ARE THOROUGHLY DISCHARGED, every so often it is worthwhile to
> simply feel them after they have been under power for a few hours, and
> replace the whole batch if any one of them is particularly warm.
>
> Gene May
> WB8WKU
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2113/4900 - Release Date: 03/28/12
>

_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

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They have also received transformers with more than normal HV Gerald. I dont know how many got out to customers but they were for the 3 big amps.

The Amp Supply 3-500 amps also get on the edge with a high AC line since they use only 7 caps.

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message -----
From: TexasRF@aol.com
To: km1h@jeremy.mv.com ; gene-may@hotmail.com ; amps@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail

I learned all about this the hard way when an AL1500 was strapped for 200vac operation in an attempt to get more power output.

Not a pretty sight! Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

73,
Gerald K5GW

In a message dated 3/28/2012 8:12:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, km1h@jeremy.mv.com writes:
After a short time reforming of modern caps anything over 1ma at 450V I
consider junk.
Ive also rejected new caps that started acting up at around 440V which
caused Ameritron grief when I told them. They found out their supplier was
short changing them on the aluminum and have been testing....and rejecting
since.

I buy large amounts of repair parts from them so they listen when I report a
problem.

Carl
KM1H

_______________________________________________
Amps mailing list
Amps@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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So, after all the horror stories of exploding caps, I want to mention that a
few months ago, I removed each original capacitor from one of my Alpha 76A
amplifiers. It was fairly low time and had been sitting on the shelf. I
reformed each capacitor, measured the capacitance, and they were all within
factory specs. I then formed each one, working up to 450 volts, the rated
voltage. Each one had very low leakage. ESR on each one tested as good as
new. So, I put them back into the Alpha. I was also surprised that the
original carbon composition resistors were each within tolerance and quite
close to each other.

I could have installed new capacitors, but after passing all these tests, I
did not hesitate to reinstall them into the amplifier. Heat contributes
greatly to the aging process.

Unless I was comfortable with the results of these tests, I would have
replaced them. I own and fly an old wood aircraft. Things get replaced if
they need replacing - but if they are still good, they do not get replaced.

73, Colin K7FM

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From: Al Kozakiewicz <akozak@hourglass.com>
To: 'k7fm' <k7fm@teleport.com>, "amps@contesting.com" <amps@contesting.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:42:39 -0400
Thread-Topic: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail
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ESR is a good indicator for end of service life. With an ample current source, increased resistance = more power dissipated in the component = more heat = more boom. Increasing ESR is usually accompanied by decreased capacitance. If you can't measure ESR, an electrolytic significantly below the normal -20% tolerance probably means it's approaching the danger zone in addition to losing effectiveness.

Although not directly related to the mac daddies used in amplifiers, apparently there has been a major problem with electrolytics in general starting the late 1990s, mainly with components labeled as manufactured in Taiwan (though counterfeits may be a major contributor). I know that I've taught the network techs at work how to salvage a large number of dead monitors without a schematic or any diagnostic tool other than examining the electrolytic capacitors for bulging. Replacement almost always resurrects the device. There's a wikipedia entry on this problem called "capacitor plague" or some such.

Al
AB2ZY

-----Original Message-----
From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of k7fm
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:23 PM
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] How to know when filter caps begin to fail

So, after all the horror stories of exploding caps, I want to mention that a few months ago, I removed each original capacitor from one of my Alpha 76A amplifiers. It was fairly low time and had been sitting on the shelf. I reformed each capacitor, measured the capacitance, and they were all within factory specs. I then formed each one, working up to 450 volts, the rated voltage. Each one had very low leakage. ESR on each one tested as good as new. So, I put them back into the Alpha. I was also surprised that the original carbon composition resistors were each within tolerance and quite close to each other.

I could have installed new capacitors, but after passing all these tests, I did not hesitate to reinstall them into the amplifier. Heat contributes greatly to the aging process.

Unless I was comfortable with the results of these tests, I would have replaced them. I own and fly an old wood aircraft. Things get replaced if they need replacing - but if they are still good, they do not get replaced.

73, Colin K7FM

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My experience is that the only time electrolytic caps explode is either when
the polarity is backwards or when a rectifier diode fails and AC appears
across them. I've found other age-related failures to generally be more
benign. Generally they just lose their capacitance but don't start
conducting. Now tantalum caps are another story. They almost always fail by
short circuiting, sometimes catching fire.
73,
Jim W8ZR

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Not sure if all the attachments will go through. I am sure we all have
very similar experience.

If they dont make it here are the links to it. Read the complete thread.

http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/amps/2012-March/080256.html
http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/amps/2012-March/080282.html
http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/amps/2012-March/080289.html
http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/amps/2012-March/080297.html

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